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binlog 1 hours ago [-]
New Constructs is bearish on every tech IPO. Easy to reinforce your bias by selectively looking at instances where they were right, like WeWork, but they also predicted failed IPOs for Spotify (+219%), Uber (+60%), CrowdStrike (+3136%), Cloudflare (+2306%), Palantir (+1991%), Snowflake (+51%), DoorDash (+93%), Robinhood (+187%), ARM (+422%), Instacart (+59%), Reddit (+370%), CoreWeave (+105%), SpaceX (+20%) and lots more.
So whatever your stance on Anthropic this particular analysis is safe to ignore.
asah 36 minutes ago [-]
Criticize the argument, not the speaker.
Betelbuddy 1 hours ago [-]
You dont need to criticize good research, you can just recognize the market can stay gullible, for longer than you stay solvent.
I like to think you can enjoy the ride wave as you are propped above the heads of an hysterical crowd, as they rush to the abyss...Just find some solid tree branch you can latch on, when they realize where the road ends.
bryanrasmussen 21 minutes ago [-]
I feel like the market staying irrational/gullible longer than you can stay solvent argument doesn't really make sense when all you're doing is NOT investing in something. It seems an aphorism more suited to puts and calls, puts especially, than it is to deciding not to invest at all.
binlog 1 hours ago [-]
It’s not “good research” when they are wrong >50% of the time. If you invested money in every IPO they told their subscribers to avoid you’d be very rich today.
Betelbuddy 55 minutes ago [-]
I define good or bad research, based on my time horizon and the time-value-of-money. For example its irrelevant for me how much money Tesla makes, since I judge there only two possible outcomes for the company: bankruptcy or assimilation.
binlog 53 minutes ago [-]
So would you consider putting money into the Tesla IPO a bad investment?
Betelbuddy 47 minutes ago [-]
Would you consider putting money into Tulips in Amsterdam on Feb 1636 ?
binlog 46 minutes ago [-]
No, because people who did so lost money. Now answer my question.
bryanrasmussen 16 minutes ago [-]
the peak of tulip mania was in 1637, people who invested in 1636 and got out in early 1637 would probably have made good money.
I believe the analogy here is that investing in the Tesla IPO would have made a lot of money, yes, but at some point in a future implied to be not so far off, staying in Tesla should lead to losing all that money.
I sort of feel like that will probably prove to be true. Was it a bad idea to invest in the IPO, no, but it wasn't a bad idea to invest in tulips either, until it became a very bad idea.
Betelbuddy 18 minutes ago [-]
I just did
anon373839 3 hours ago [-]
I don't see how Anthropic can become profitable enough to justify its investments unless they can either stop training models ("Pace the Frontier!!1"), or magically eliminate open source competition so that their volume x margin on inference is high enough to dwarf the training costs.
For the IPO, I assume they're going to try to get everyone to focus on inference - which is profitable in isolation. But I don't know how they'll distract the market from the other half of the equation.
dumberquestions 2 hours ago [-]
Their inference margins are already high, the thing bringing their net down isn't training per se, it's the fact that they have to train the next iteration right away due to competition, otherwise an extended inference cycle would've eventually recouped training costs.
The bet is that cost per intelligence will keep going down and demand for intelligence will grow at the same time, if this bet holds, a user could get the same or more done with a cheaper model (running-cost wise) while paying the same subscription and the lab gets improved margins.
Open source is a challenge but their current moat is the fact that they're ahead, and as long as they stay ahead they'll be able to charge a premium.
gspr 7 minutes ago [-]
> Open source is a challenge but their current moat is the fact that they're ahead, and as long as they stay ahead they'll be able to charge a premium.
Being ahead isn't much of a moat in a game where playing catch-up is significantly easier than being ahead. Also, how much ahead of Chinese labs are they at best? A year? Two? That's a moat for ants!
dofm 1 hours ago [-]
> it's the fact that they have to train the next iteration right away due to competition
That it would be profitable if only there were no competition is not a really strong starting point for an IPO, though, is it?
(It is, however, the winner-takes-all world view Anthropic still seems to operate with)
vidarh 1 hours ago [-]
Their competition has the same problem. They're engaged in a giant game of chicken (or giant game of "who runs out of ability to raise more cheap capital first") with respect to overspending on training relative to inference revenue.
So, yes, it's high risk - you're basically betting on who will be in the strongest position when one or more of the competitors are forced to slow spending and the rest are able to ease off on theirs as well as a consequence.
If you think either that Anthropic is in a strong enough position to come out on top or that we'll end up with a detente like with the big cloud providers where they big providers feel they have a strong enough position to beat off upstarts and collectively basically stop competing other than on the margins because they all know they'll earn more by protecting their margins than by internal competition, then the IPO might be worth putting money on.
I think the latter scenario is slightly lower risk, but still risky given how small the moat appears to be vs. the Chinese labs (I say this as I just had Kimi re-design a website in 10 minutes by just giving it the URL to the current one and tell it to replicate everything; they might not be as smart as the frontier models yet, but they're capable enough that they're taking over an increasing proportion of my token budget)
dofm 1 hours ago [-]
> Their competition has the same problem. They're engaged in a giant game of chicken (or giant game of "who runs out of ability to raise more cheap capital first") with respect to overspending on training relative to inference revenue.
It's a sort of weird chicken game in that there's a meta-chicken game going on too — they are both, sort of separately, betting that the outcome of their chicken game will be too devastating for the US economy for it to be allowed to happen.
(I say "sort of separately". But the one guy used to work for the other guy. You know how people who split up from partners spend the next few years trying to shake their ex-partner's framing of the world? They know each other's thinking; they are aligned where this meta-chicken game is concerned)
vidarh 50 minutes ago [-]
They don't need it to actually be devastating. They just need sufficient fear of it.
Especially if it is finely calibrated enough that they get to continue at a slower pace, but end up with enough expensive red tape to slow down upstart competition more because of high compliance costs.
If they can't beat OpenAI etc., the second best is to near-freeze market shares in place at a lower rate of investment - hence my comparison to cloud providers where none of the big providers makes too large reductions in prices etc. because they all know they'll all lose on a price war.
Betelbuddy 1 hours ago [-]
>> Their inference margins are already high
So they make a profit on each burger they sell you, but however they keep limiting how many they are willing to sell you?
dofm 1 hours ago [-]
Only in this analogy it also takes years and lots of money to train the people flipping them, and they would like their investors not to notice that.
Limiting usage on heavily subsidized subscription plans is not the same as cutting access to their models. Switch to API billing and you can have as many tokens as you desire.
Betelbuddy 46 minutes ago [-]
Sounds like the trick of restaurants with cheap food, and expensive wine ;-) I dont drink alcohol and dont date anymore...
cmiles8 1 hours ago [-]
The rush towards open weight models defeats this thesis. There’s no prize for being “ahead.” That’s academically interesting but a terrible business plan. 99% of AI use cases don’t need the latest and greatest model, and businesses increasingly understand this.
ACCount39 1 hours ago [-]
That's like saying "forklifts are a terrible idea, because a forklift is excessive for lifting 99% of the items that I can lift". See the problem?
"AI use cases" is a moving target! If you try to define "use cases" by "what AIs today can be used to do", you miss things AIs would do in the future. The more capable and price-performant AIs get, the more there are places where AI has a role.
This is a big part of what the frontier buys you.
The other big part is that going from a local AI to a frontier model often makes the difference between "this use case works 60% of the time, good tech demo" and "this use case works 99% of the time, good business decision". The difference between "clunky and needs human in the loop" and "just works" is worth paying the API price.
vidarh 58 minutes ago [-]
The forklift market seems to be in the $90-$95 billion / year while the global passenger car market is $2.9 trillion.
This is the problem.
While the frontier labs will always have a market for AI that can do things the other models can't, if the sliver of work that can be done only by the frontier models is narrow enough, then what they spend to train those frontier models may not let them capture all that much extra revenue.
I absolutely think there will be a market for frontier models pushing further and further.
But it's not yet a given whether or not being ahead on capabilities is going to buy them all that much more higher earnings relative to lower tier providers.
If it stays the case that going from local AI to a frontier model makes the difference between 60% and 99%, then they probably will, but there's nothing to suggest local or open model, or second-tier closed models won't keep moving ahead as well, and eat away at the use cases where only a frontier model will do.
lutanista 18 minutes ago [-]
The forklift analogy proves the opposite point.
There is no business model for competing companies to build forklifts that can lift an infinite amount.
That is not to say attempting to do so would not find new use cases for such powerful forklifts. The problem is the cost of building ever increasingly powerful forklifts while the TAM for that power shrinks.
You don't even have to bring in the enormous difference between forklift rusting theta vs gpu theta.
cmiles8 1 hours ago [-]
Except that’s simply not how it works. Companies just have one forklift. Yes it’s too much for most use cases but you don’t have a garage full of different sized forklifts. There’s a big cost to keeping all these extra forklifts on standby.
Models, however, are completely interchangeable on demand. That’s why companies are building these realtime internal marketplaces to route tokens to different models. Anthropic may win the occasional “bleeding edge” use case but the money is in the day to day use cases that get routed to the cheap-but-works options. There’s zero cost to having all the forklift sizes at your disposal and only using the size needed when it’s truly needed.
Anthropic is trying to sell the biggest baddest forklift in a world where companies can swap out cheaper ones easily and on demand. Hence why Anthropic doesn’t appear to have a viable business model in its current form.
grebc 2 hours ago [-]
They don’t care if they get to sell more equity.
toomuchtodo 2 hours ago [-]
This. The product is the stock, the tech is the fomo theater to sell the product.
BosunoB 2 hours ago [-]
If the models get good enough, the demand for them will soar.
These companies believe they're a year from AGI, and that's how they'll be profitable.
Smoosh 39 minutes ago [-]
If they are a year from AGI, then the private investors can hang on and use their new super intelligence on their own tasks to make themselves considerably more wealthy now and into the future, so why would they want to sell that power to anyone else?
gspr 1 minutes ago [-]
> These companies believe they're a year from AGI, and that's how they'll be profitable.
What I don't get is that if Company A is a year from AGI (I don't think that's true, but then again, I don't think anyone even has a good definition of AGI), then surely Companies B–ZZ are only a few years from AGI as well. There is no moat. Or if there is a moat, the moat is hardware scarcity – but that's systemically outside of the control of these companies.
u1hcw9nx 2 hours ago [-]
Unlike the dot-com era, this is a bubble that everyone saw coming.
Like dot-com, there are many long-term winners, but cash hungry frontier labs are not among them.
Prediction:
OpenAI, Anthropic, Oracle, and SpaceX[1] go down and assets be sold or companies acquired for a fraction of their valuation. The same goes for most neoclouds. Profitable "old" tech companies like MS, Google, Meta, and Amazon are fine and scoop up the valuable parts for pennies.
Nvidia will be in Cisco's position (Cisco was the world's most valuable company in the dot-com era). Both are good companies that are not going anywhere, but stock prices get decimated when markets collapse (Nvidia liabilities are not high enough to take company down, they are mostly tied to there not being a bubble and data centers are getting built)
[1] Everyone already knows that, according to SpaceX, > 80% of SpaceX's valuation is in AI, not in space stuff, right?
bjornroberg 2 hours ago [-]
Interesting take. How high is that probability within the next five years, do you think?
aragilar 1 hours ago [-]
Given https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-10-10/how-firmus-the-bigges... and the above, I'd say we're already primed for a fall. Given 5 years is a pretty long time (that's 3 US elections cycles where politics can increase uncertainty about AI), and the length it took for the subprime market to create the GFC (see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Subprime_mortgage_origina...) looks to be about 3-5 years, I'd be 99% sure the crash would happen by then (with the 1% covering both the uncertainty in the cycle and something odd happening).
dofm 1 hours ago [-]
Nvidia probably doesn't really have really serious liabilities as long as it has actually produced all the GPUs it has sold on a buy-and-hold basis.
It's fabless, right? So they haven't even built out wasted manufacturing capacity.
As long as the GPUs they have sold are really sitting in a warehouse in Taiwan or somewhere in the USA, they are making properly concrete money.
The fact that nobody else is making real money, that will eventually come back to bite them, but Nvidia will just see its business shrink; it will have to scale back if the bubble bursts, but it will get out with much of that money intact.
Ekaros 52 minutes ago [-]
The other parties swimming in money are memory chip makers. And I think list pretty much ends there. They might or might not over commit for future and eat the cost. But they too might be good with these profits even if future fabs lose some money.
surgical_fire 1 hours ago [-]
My prediction is the same. I think MS, Google, and Amazon will be the winners here. They might take a hit when OpenAI and Anthropic blow up, bu they can absorb it, and are well positioned to provide those services in a reasonably sustainable fashion. I suspect the costs of using AI will be considerably higher at that point (subscriptions will be extremely limited or just non-existent). Meta does not benefit in this case since it doesn't provide compute, but they have money to waste (as they did with Metaverse, VR, etc).
dofm 1 hours ago [-]
> inference - which is profitable in isolation
They have not actually demonstrated this, really.
PunchyHamster 1 hours ago [-]
Question is really how many companies will stay due to inertia while competition catches up
cyanydeez 2 hours ago [-]
You're of course speaking of a world that doesn't manipulate the cost of memory.
Hard to run local modals when sam altman continues to drive up the cost of compute.
liendolucas 1 hours ago [-]
> The New Constructs report also notes that Anthropic’s assertion that AI could pose “a catastrophic or existential risk to humanity” is another reason why investors should avoid the IPO.
So, we go from an existential threat to basically unprofitable business. I can only see Amodei and Altman just as the next Holmes.
scandox 2 hours ago [-]
> In an interview with CNBC in 2021, Trainer acknowledged that “crazy stuff happens” and New Constructs doesn’t always get it right.
> “I can’t let that bother me,” he said at the time. “I have to stay true to what I think is right.”
I was hoping you were able to make the numbers work.
I have just not read or listened to much of anything that the numbers work besides some science fiction fantasy on Dwarkesh podcast.
The gpu theta + the frontier model theta + token deflation creates this rolling window that I just don't see how it works given even the most bullish assumptions.
Maybe if the rolling window was expanding a rational argument could be made for the valuation. No one can say with a straight face the rolling window is expanding.
It is like competing biotech firms without patents working on the same drug but with these time decay parameters too.
ChrisArchitect 23 minutes ago [-]
Related:
Anthropic IPO prospectus shows AI vision, surging costs
New Constructs takes a similar position on all mega IPOs. Sometimes they're right, but sometimes they're wrong. For example, they insisted Uber's IPO valuation was too high due to unsustainable losses, hidden liabilities, etc. Initially they were proved right when the post-IPO stock price plummeted, but in the long term Uber has performed well, become very profitable, and now trades well above its IPO valuation.
I'm expecting a similar story to play out with Anthropic: The stock price will come down significantly after the IPO, resulting in lots of headlines about the AI bubble bursting. But in the long term it'll climb up again and investors who stick around will do very well.
seanhunter 3 hours ago [-]
“Now trades well above the IPO valuation” does not mean something would have been a good investment at the IPO price given opportunity cost and the time value of money. Additionally, the current price could equally not represent good value.
solyin 3 hours ago [-]
Yeah. Look at SpaceX. Dropped to $108 from an Ipo price of $135, but it's currently at $162 which is... fine?
somenameforme 2 hours ago [-]
I suspect SpaceX is going to be the opposite of what will happen with Anthropic. With SpaceX I think the overwhelming majority of people didn't initially understand what Starship is, how far along it is, or what it even means in terms of its impact on the pathway of getting humans to be a multiplanetary species. So it was greatly undervalued and zoomed upward.
With Anthropic I think a lot of people haven't really realized the trend line of cost of "AI" (both in literal $ terms, and compute costs for local operation) or what open weight systems will do to the market in the "long run", where long run in this case means the next year or two. I don't think any LLM company is going to come out a winner in the longrun, because the price for LLM output is going to approach $0 with no chance for a moat whatsoever.
swiftcoder 2 hours ago [-]
> the overwhelming majority of people didn't initially understand what Starship is, how far along it is, or what it even means ... So it was greatly undervalued
I don't think anyone was undervaluing the "space" segment of SpaceX. It's the clear leader in launch frequency and cost-to-orbit among the new wave of space firms, and shows no sign of losing that position.
Where the IPO raised a bunch of red flags was SpaceX suddenly acquiring Elon's AI firm, which had a significantly more nebulous basis for its valuation...
ButlerianJihad 2 hours ago [-]
> the pathway of getting humans to be a multiplanetary species
I am afraid that you're suffering from Flavor-Aid poisoning here. We need a reality check about "multiplanetary colonization".
I've been following human spaceflight since I was born. I've actually participated in robotic spaceflight. And I'm here to say that it is robots who are destined to be a multiplanetary species. The robots have already successfully escaped our solar system and extensively explored the Moon, Mars, and elsewhere.
Many unscientific people believe that it's harder to colonize the Moon or Mars because they are farther than Africa or Rio de Janeiro is from Rome. But mere distance is not really your biggest obstacle.
I've also been following the ISS since its inception, and they have empirically disproven the feasibility of colonizing planets. If we succeed in establishing a crewed Moon base, it will be an ultra-Herculean effort, and it's on the edge of feasibility.
But Mars? Venus? Asteroids? Europa? You really think humans are going to live there?
The reasons that ISS has disproven this are manifold, but I'll point out two key points:
Their supply-chain is only about 8-48 hours, and they can stash large amounts of provisions up there. Their escape route is also only 8 hours and they're back on Earth in a jiffy. None of this is true for any body outside of Earth orbit. The Apollo missions arrived on the Moon and returned safely, by burning, jettisoning, consuming, and abandoning nearly everything they started with!!
A 15th-century expedition to Africa or Brazil means that you can fish in the ocean, breathe the air, drink rainwater along the way. An expedition to the Moon puts you in an airtight bubble with no stops, no rescue, no resupply, and most importantly, no breathing on the way, nor once you get there.
The ISS has also demonstrated the severe toll on the human physique in microgravity conditions. Watch astronauts who land or splash down. They are carted off in gurneys. They are literally unable to walk unassisted. NASA restricts returnees from driving or even jogging. The astronauts describe having to "relearn gravity" activities like brushing your teeth and showering. Any astronaut arriving on Mars would be as helpless as a toddler! Do you want to colonize Mars with toddlers? Because all the treadmills and workouts along the way won't make them fit for purpose on arrival.
So between here and Mars it's minimum six months, no escape, no rescues, no takey-backsies. We could send humans to Mars if we didn't want them to survive or return. I mean, no problem. There's no air to breathe on Mars; no water to drink; no fuel to burn; no fish to fish nor deer to hunt; no steel to build a shelter. You pack it all into the spacecraft, newbie?
But NASA and the rest of the world has amply demonstrated just how capable robots are where humans fail. Robots are going to inherit the solar system. Robots are in 2026, the de facto interplanetary species, sine qua non. My heart is warmed by these human achievements. I, for one, am happy to live and die on Earth. I think that every American should be grateful for Earth, and not permit our oligarchs to cheat and lie to us with fairytales of escaping our Earth.
customguy 3 minutes ago [-]
The whole caring oh so much about humanity simply doesn't pass the smell test for me. I don't want to go into details and individuals, but I just don't buy it; what I do buy is wanting to get a foot into space to get even more leverage over the humans on Earth, and not for our benefit. That actually fits their actions and their aura, so to speak. But "preserving the light of human consciousness" and such? Now I know it's a scam and an agenda. And the more flowery the language, the more sinister I expect the actual designs to be.
gizajob 2 hours ago [-]
Everything you’re saying is true but it’s nevertheless going to happen anyway.
jiggawatts 2 hours ago [-]
I fully agree with your points: the hard, unyielding reality which most Trekkie fanatics refuse to acknowledge, except for one: "severe toll on the human physique in microgravity conditions."
That's easily fixed!
Spinning a space station for gravity is straightforward, it's just that the ISS wasn't designed for it, and NASA didn't have the budget to build a second, bigger space station with "extra engineering challenges" on top.
It's definitely practical though, it's just a matter of launching enough mass to orbit.
Like you said, Starship is going to change a lot of things, starting with space station design.
ButlerianJihad 1 hours ago [-]
> spinning ... for gravity
Yeah, I mean, I get that the spinning has long been a viable proposition. Perhaps if we send a spinning expedition to Mars, the astronauts won't be toddlers when they arrive on a barren, hostile, resource-free world. Yet, that is a lot of extra mass; that is non-zero extra fuel; that is a lot of extra "stuff goes wrong" risk inherent in that design.
But it's unprecedented, untried, and not currently in any pipeline, AFAIK. I believe there were a few experimental spinning crewed flights, during the original Space Race. But does Starship spin and simulate gravity? Is there any crewed spinning spacecraft extant, in production, or even being designed?
They don't need to spin their way to the Moon, so it would be unlikely that any Artemis or future crewed Moon mission spins at all. But if spinning our way to Mars will solve an otherwise intractable set of problems, I suppose we'd better get started on proving it.
cmiles8 2 hours ago [-]
While I think SpaceX is still horribly over-valued they at least have a diverse line of businesses that are very hard to copy.
Anthropic is a one trick pony and the world is discovering lots of other cheap ponies that do the same trick.
cmiles8 2 hours ago [-]
“So, what you're telling me is that the music is about to stop and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous excrement ever assembled in the history of capitalism.”
A brilliant line from the movie Margin Call (a fictional portrait of the actual events of the 2008 crisis) that appears likely to get reused in upcoming AI bubble burst movies.
dofm 50 minutes ago [-]
"In the history of… <pregnant pause> capitalism"
That whole scene is absolutely full of perfect observations; I refer to it often in different contexts.
It's the first film JC Chandor ever directed, off what I understand to be his first feature-length film script.
Another great quote: "I run risk management... it just doesn't seem like a natural place to start cutting."
zecg 49 minutes ago [-]
You don't buy their stock to obtain money, you do it to placate the future overlords.
formfinder 2 hours ago [-]
[dead]
dude250711 3 hours ago [-]
Maybe the portion of Anthropic that produces Opus/Sonnet can be spun out for us devs at a reasonable valuation?
Keep all the Mythos/Projects/etc. hype/feature-creep crap in some other entity and value that at $5 tn or something if you wish.
seanhunter 1 hours ago [-]
Just spin the golden-egg production part out of the goose, then we can cook and eat the rest.
yorwba 3 hours ago [-]
Anthropic's small models are almost certainly distilled from their larger ones. And their biggest training expense are going to be experimental models that aren't even intended for release, just to test out some idea.
zshn 3 hours ago [-]
This reminds me of all the people asking for AWS to be spun out of Amazon.
wwizo 2 hours ago [-]
The model is engine, the harness is the car Anthropic are selling.
They are a service company, selling home-grown, mass-produced, conveniently packaged intelligence at a well established price for consumer. Their API pricing might just be for value proposition and tax deduction purposes.
Every tech company, tech department, startup that I know is using claude code to deliver. The boutique deepseeks, qwens, glms and kimis are nice, but ain't production ready in 98% of cases. All the pi's, opencodes, etc are nice, but much less enterprise friendly. And google just outright sucks in comparison. There's a use case for each, but not at the scale Anthropic is doing.
Only real competition - OpenAI - is close, but they're burning money to stay there, which imo is unsustainable long term.
Is Anthropic worth $2T? Can't say. But boy they have a good opportunity to test this, and they may not have a similar chance in the future.
I think they have a fair chance at this.
jubilee33 36 minutes ago [-]
All the smaller players İ know of have moved production to DeepSeek or Qwen, while they still play with idea/prototyping on Claude or GPT, that's the Western focused players. There are many foreign firms who won't touch either company at all even for that.
Simple reasons being no nonsense nanny refusals & it's cheap/good enough to get the everyday production parts done fast and reliably for next to nothing.
Your experience is not what I see at all, but İ don't work with megacorps or in the Valley anymore, so it's possible those powers will carry the weight to some extent, until they won't or can't.
api 2 hours ago [-]
I've tried a bunch of LLMs, and I agree that Claude is currently the best at coding, but the gap isn't huge. Gemini 3.8 Flash is surprisingly good and I'm looking forward to trying Gemini 4. The open weights models like Kimi, GLM, etc. are a little behind in quality I think but not massively.
With harnesses I see little difference between what Zed or Pi gives me and what Claude Code gives me. Enterprise features? The AI can help code those in a week.
AI itself is a great breaker of moats.
The question isn't whether they lead today. It's whether there's any kind of moat. Without a moat, frontier model development is an industry like chip fabrication or large volume manufacturing. Those industries are a red queen's race where if you stop innovating for even a short while you sink. Ask Intel what happened when they decided to coast for a few years.
Chip fabs and bulk manufacturers make a lot of money, sure, but they don't command such a multiple. Anthropic is priced like they're going to be to AI what Google was to web search or Apple is to (US at least) mobile and higher-end PCs.
I don't see it. I think they'll be a big player but that big?
Of course... maybe if they suddenly have that much cash they'll be able to carpet bomb the entire world with AI doom Rationalist ideology and buy their regulatory capture and outlaw their competition.
wwizo 2 hours ago [-]
They made it convenient to get value for the specialist masses and I don't think anyone else managed to achieve it yet. That's their moat.
I've seen firsthand attempts at integrating open source in place of it and they all failed. Time is money and it costs premium. Touching the ground running is a huge advantage. That's why cloud services stuck.
freecodeio 6 minutes ago [-]
time is money so when the subsidies stop or they magically make inference price an afterthought like cloud did to traffic then it's going to be much more economically better to spend a one-time price setting up a local or a self hosted open model than paying $2000 for a subscription
api 2 minutes ago [-]
The question isn’t whether Anthropic makes a good product. The question is whether it can rationally sustain multiples like this.
So whatever your stance on Anthropic this particular analysis is safe to ignore.
I like to think you can enjoy the ride wave as you are propped above the heads of an hysterical crowd, as they rush to the abyss...Just find some solid tree branch you can latch on, when they realize where the road ends.
I believe the analogy here is that investing in the Tesla IPO would have made a lot of money, yes, but at some point in a future implied to be not so far off, staying in Tesla should lead to losing all that money.
I sort of feel like that will probably prove to be true. Was it a bad idea to invest in the IPO, no, but it wasn't a bad idea to invest in tulips either, until it became a very bad idea.
For the IPO, I assume they're going to try to get everyone to focus on inference - which is profitable in isolation. But I don't know how they'll distract the market from the other half of the equation.
The bet is that cost per intelligence will keep going down and demand for intelligence will grow at the same time, if this bet holds, a user could get the same or more done with a cheaper model (running-cost wise) while paying the same subscription and the lab gets improved margins.
Open source is a challenge but their current moat is the fact that they're ahead, and as long as they stay ahead they'll be able to charge a premium.
Being ahead isn't much of a moat in a game where playing catch-up is significantly easier than being ahead. Also, how much ahead of Chinese labs are they at best? A year? Two? That's a moat for ants!
That it would be profitable if only there were no competition is not a really strong starting point for an IPO, though, is it?
(It is, however, the winner-takes-all world view Anthropic still seems to operate with)
So, yes, it's high risk - you're basically betting on who will be in the strongest position when one or more of the competitors are forced to slow spending and the rest are able to ease off on theirs as well as a consequence.
If you think either that Anthropic is in a strong enough position to come out on top or that we'll end up with a detente like with the big cloud providers where they big providers feel they have a strong enough position to beat off upstarts and collectively basically stop competing other than on the margins because they all know they'll earn more by protecting their margins than by internal competition, then the IPO might be worth putting money on.
I think the latter scenario is slightly lower risk, but still risky given how small the moat appears to be vs. the Chinese labs (I say this as I just had Kimi re-design a website in 10 minutes by just giving it the URL to the current one and tell it to replicate everything; they might not be as smart as the frontier models yet, but they're capable enough that they're taking over an increasing proportion of my token budget)
It's a sort of weird chicken game in that there's a meta-chicken game going on too — they are both, sort of separately, betting that the outcome of their chicken game will be too devastating for the US economy for it to be allowed to happen.
(I say "sort of separately". But the one guy used to work for the other guy. You know how people who split up from partners spend the next few years trying to shake their ex-partner's framing of the world? They know each other's thinking; they are aligned where this meta-chicken game is concerned)
Especially if it is finely calibrated enough that they get to continue at a slower pace, but end up with enough expensive red tape to slow down upstart competition more because of high compliance costs.
If they can't beat OpenAI etc., the second best is to near-freeze market shares in place at a lower rate of investment - hence my comparison to cloud providers where none of the big providers makes too large reductions in prices etc. because they all know they'll all lose on a price war.
So they make a profit on each burger they sell you, but however they keep limiting how many they are willing to sell you?
https://explainx.ai/blog/anthropic-claude-code-limits-17-per...
"AI use cases" is a moving target! If you try to define "use cases" by "what AIs today can be used to do", you miss things AIs would do in the future. The more capable and price-performant AIs get, the more there are places where AI has a role.
This is a big part of what the frontier buys you.
The other big part is that going from a local AI to a frontier model often makes the difference between "this use case works 60% of the time, good tech demo" and "this use case works 99% of the time, good business decision". The difference between "clunky and needs human in the loop" and "just works" is worth paying the API price.
This is the problem.
While the frontier labs will always have a market for AI that can do things the other models can't, if the sliver of work that can be done only by the frontier models is narrow enough, then what they spend to train those frontier models may not let them capture all that much extra revenue.
I absolutely think there will be a market for frontier models pushing further and further.
But it's not yet a given whether or not being ahead on capabilities is going to buy them all that much more higher earnings relative to lower tier providers.
If it stays the case that going from local AI to a frontier model makes the difference between 60% and 99%, then they probably will, but there's nothing to suggest local or open model, or second-tier closed models won't keep moving ahead as well, and eat away at the use cases where only a frontier model will do.
There is no business model for competing companies to build forklifts that can lift an infinite amount.
That is not to say attempting to do so would not find new use cases for such powerful forklifts. The problem is the cost of building ever increasingly powerful forklifts while the TAM for that power shrinks.
You don't even have to bring in the enormous difference between forklift rusting theta vs gpu theta.
Models, however, are completely interchangeable on demand. That’s why companies are building these realtime internal marketplaces to route tokens to different models. Anthropic may win the occasional “bleeding edge” use case but the money is in the day to day use cases that get routed to the cheap-but-works options. There’s zero cost to having all the forklift sizes at your disposal and only using the size needed when it’s truly needed.
Anthropic is trying to sell the biggest baddest forklift in a world where companies can swap out cheaper ones easily and on demand. Hence why Anthropic doesn’t appear to have a viable business model in its current form.
These companies believe they're a year from AGI, and that's how they'll be profitable.
What I don't get is that if Company A is a year from AGI (I don't think that's true, but then again, I don't think anyone even has a good definition of AGI), then surely Companies B–ZZ are only a few years from AGI as well. There is no moat. Or if there is a moat, the moat is hardware scarcity – but that's systemically outside of the control of these companies.
Like dot-com, there are many long-term winners, but cash hungry frontier labs are not among them.
Prediction:
OpenAI, Anthropic, Oracle, and SpaceX[1] go down and assets be sold or companies acquired for a fraction of their valuation. The same goes for most neoclouds. Profitable "old" tech companies like MS, Google, Meta, and Amazon are fine and scoop up the valuable parts for pennies.
Nvidia will be in Cisco's position (Cisco was the world's most valuable company in the dot-com era). Both are good companies that are not going anywhere, but stock prices get decimated when markets collapse (Nvidia liabilities are not high enough to take company down, they are mostly tied to there not being a bubble and data centers are getting built)
[1] Everyone already knows that, according to SpaceX, > 80% of SpaceX's valuation is in AI, not in space stuff, right?
It's fabless, right? So they haven't even built out wasted manufacturing capacity.
As long as the GPUs they have sold are really sitting in a warehouse in Taiwan or somewhere in the USA, they are making properly concrete money.
The fact that nobody else is making real money, that will eventually come back to bite them, but Nvidia will just see its business shrink; it will have to scale back if the bubble bursts, but it will get out with much of that money intact.
They have not actually demonstrated this, really.
Hard to run local modals when sam altman continues to drive up the cost of compute.
So, we go from an existential threat to basically unprofitable business. I can only see Amodei and Altman just as the next Holmes.
> “I can’t let that bother me,” he said at the time. “I have to stay true to what I think is right.”
Monkey remains true to darts, dartboard.
I have just not read or listened to much of anything that the numbers work besides some science fiction fantasy on Dwarkesh podcast.
The gpu theta + the frontier model theta + token deflation creates this rolling window that I just don't see how it works given even the most bullish assumptions.
Maybe if the rolling window was expanding a rational argument could be made for the valuation. No one can say with a straight face the rolling window is expanding.
It is like competing biotech firms without patents working on the same drug but with these time decay parameters too.
Anthropic IPO prospectus shows AI vision, surging costs
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49886005
I'm expecting a similar story to play out with Anthropic: The stock price will come down significantly after the IPO, resulting in lots of headlines about the AI bubble bursting. But in the long term it'll climb up again and investors who stick around will do very well.
With Anthropic I think a lot of people haven't really realized the trend line of cost of "AI" (both in literal $ terms, and compute costs for local operation) or what open weight systems will do to the market in the "long run", where long run in this case means the next year or two. I don't think any LLM company is going to come out a winner in the longrun, because the price for LLM output is going to approach $0 with no chance for a moat whatsoever.
I don't think anyone was undervaluing the "space" segment of SpaceX. It's the clear leader in launch frequency and cost-to-orbit among the new wave of space firms, and shows no sign of losing that position.
Where the IPO raised a bunch of red flags was SpaceX suddenly acquiring Elon's AI firm, which had a significantly more nebulous basis for its valuation...
I am afraid that you're suffering from Flavor-Aid poisoning here. We need a reality check about "multiplanetary colonization".
I've been following human spaceflight since I was born. I've actually participated in robotic spaceflight. And I'm here to say that it is robots who are destined to be a multiplanetary species. The robots have already successfully escaped our solar system and extensively explored the Moon, Mars, and elsewhere.
Many unscientific people believe that it's harder to colonize the Moon or Mars because they are farther than Africa or Rio de Janeiro is from Rome. But mere distance is not really your biggest obstacle.
I've also been following the ISS since its inception, and they have empirically disproven the feasibility of colonizing planets. If we succeed in establishing a crewed Moon base, it will be an ultra-Herculean effort, and it's on the edge of feasibility.
But Mars? Venus? Asteroids? Europa? You really think humans are going to live there?
The reasons that ISS has disproven this are manifold, but I'll point out two key points:
Their supply-chain is only about 8-48 hours, and they can stash large amounts of provisions up there. Their escape route is also only 8 hours and they're back on Earth in a jiffy. None of this is true for any body outside of Earth orbit. The Apollo missions arrived on the Moon and returned safely, by burning, jettisoning, consuming, and abandoning nearly everything they started with!!
A 15th-century expedition to Africa or Brazil means that you can fish in the ocean, breathe the air, drink rainwater along the way. An expedition to the Moon puts you in an airtight bubble with no stops, no rescue, no resupply, and most importantly, no breathing on the way, nor once you get there.
The ISS has also demonstrated the severe toll on the human physique in microgravity conditions. Watch astronauts who land or splash down. They are carted off in gurneys. They are literally unable to walk unassisted. NASA restricts returnees from driving or even jogging. The astronauts describe having to "relearn gravity" activities like brushing your teeth and showering. Any astronaut arriving on Mars would be as helpless as a toddler! Do you want to colonize Mars with toddlers? Because all the treadmills and workouts along the way won't make them fit for purpose on arrival.
So between here and Mars it's minimum six months, no escape, no rescues, no takey-backsies. We could send humans to Mars if we didn't want them to survive or return. I mean, no problem. There's no air to breathe on Mars; no water to drink; no fuel to burn; no fish to fish nor deer to hunt; no steel to build a shelter. You pack it all into the spacecraft, newbie?
But NASA and the rest of the world has amply demonstrated just how capable robots are where humans fail. Robots are going to inherit the solar system. Robots are in 2026, the de facto interplanetary species, sine qua non. My heart is warmed by these human achievements. I, for one, am happy to live and die on Earth. I think that every American should be grateful for Earth, and not permit our oligarchs to cheat and lie to us with fairytales of escaping our Earth.
That's easily fixed!
Spinning a space station for gravity is straightforward, it's just that the ISS wasn't designed for it, and NASA didn't have the budget to build a second, bigger space station with "extra engineering challenges" on top.
It's definitely practical though, it's just a matter of launching enough mass to orbit.
Like you said, Starship is going to change a lot of things, starting with space station design.
Yeah, I mean, I get that the spinning has long been a viable proposition. Perhaps if we send a spinning expedition to Mars, the astronauts won't be toddlers when they arrive on a barren, hostile, resource-free world. Yet, that is a lot of extra mass; that is non-zero extra fuel; that is a lot of extra "stuff goes wrong" risk inherent in that design.
But it's unprecedented, untried, and not currently in any pipeline, AFAIK. I believe there were a few experimental spinning crewed flights, during the original Space Race. But does Starship spin and simulate gravity? Is there any crewed spinning spacecraft extant, in production, or even being designed?
They don't need to spin their way to the Moon, so it would be unlikely that any Artemis or future crewed Moon mission spins at all. But if spinning our way to Mars will solve an otherwise intractable set of problems, I suppose we'd better get started on proving it.
Anthropic is a one trick pony and the world is discovering lots of other cheap ponies that do the same trick.
A brilliant line from the movie Margin Call (a fictional portrait of the actual events of the 2008 crisis) that appears likely to get reused in upcoming AI bubble burst movies.
That whole scene is absolutely full of perfect observations; I refer to it often in different contexts.
It's the first film JC Chandor ever directed, off what I understand to be his first feature-length film script.
Another great quote: "I run risk management... it just doesn't seem like a natural place to start cutting."
Keep all the Mythos/Projects/etc. hype/feature-creep crap in some other entity and value that at $5 tn or something if you wish.
They are a service company, selling home-grown, mass-produced, conveniently packaged intelligence at a well established price for consumer. Their API pricing might just be for value proposition and tax deduction purposes.
Every tech company, tech department, startup that I know is using claude code to deliver. The boutique deepseeks, qwens, glms and kimis are nice, but ain't production ready in 98% of cases. All the pi's, opencodes, etc are nice, but much less enterprise friendly. And google just outright sucks in comparison. There's a use case for each, but not at the scale Anthropic is doing.
Only real competition - OpenAI - is close, but they're burning money to stay there, which imo is unsustainable long term.
Is Anthropic worth $2T? Can't say. But boy they have a good opportunity to test this, and they may not have a similar chance in the future.
I think they have a fair chance at this.
Simple reasons being no nonsense nanny refusals & it's cheap/good enough to get the everyday production parts done fast and reliably for next to nothing. Your experience is not what I see at all, but İ don't work with megacorps or in the Valley anymore, so it's possible those powers will carry the weight to some extent, until they won't or can't.
With harnesses I see little difference between what Zed or Pi gives me and what Claude Code gives me. Enterprise features? The AI can help code those in a week.
AI itself is a great breaker of moats.
The question isn't whether they lead today. It's whether there's any kind of moat. Without a moat, frontier model development is an industry like chip fabrication or large volume manufacturing. Those industries are a red queen's race where if you stop innovating for even a short while you sink. Ask Intel what happened when they decided to coast for a few years.
Chip fabs and bulk manufacturers make a lot of money, sure, but they don't command such a multiple. Anthropic is priced like they're going to be to AI what Google was to web search or Apple is to (US at least) mobile and higher-end PCs.
I don't see it. I think they'll be a big player but that big?
Of course... maybe if they suddenly have that much cash they'll be able to carpet bomb the entire world with AI doom Rationalist ideology and buy their regulatory capture and outlaw their competition.
I've seen firsthand attempts at integrating open source in place of it and they all failed. Time is money and it costs premium. Touching the ground running is a huge advantage. That's why cloud services stuck.